Level Design: What Program to Start With?

[SuperGCNBoy]

Hey guys,

I've used CoD4ModTools before and I really liked it but ever since I reformatted my computer I haven't been able to get it to work. I'll try to add a prefab of a door and it gets an error. I'm kind of sick of dealing with it. Also, as far as my experience goes with the editor, I got as far as making one floor houses with two rooms, adding random prefabs and that sort of stuff; didn't get very far. I did enjoy it a lot however.

So I'm wondering, what is a good start for level design? I know there's the UDK; I also have the Dragon Age Toolset but haven't used it yet. I know there's Hammer, but the only Source game I have is Counter Strike 1.6 and Team Fortress 2.

I'm looking for something that has a good amount of tutorials available, whether they be videos or written. The reason I chose CoD4ModTools to start out with before is because I emailed a Level Designer at Raven Software and he said they test the new LDers with CoD4 Radiant. So I'm also looking for one that might be applicable in the real world of professional level design.

Any help is always appreciated;
thanks guys,
SuperGamerBoy

[Alex Rodriguez]

Personally, I say UDK as it a global ussage can take you far. A-lot of tutorials for it such as sites like 3D buzz. Making a overall game in UDK it a little easier than with other editors, it updated constantly to stay with the current trends.

Other than that, you could try Unity or Source, as a Valve community is rather quite active if you want people to test your maps. Examples TF2 maps, left 4 dead, half life etc..

There also Cry Engine 3 if you want to give a shot at that, again it has great tutorials and content much like UDK

[White Paper Games]

SuperGamerBoy,

Its a good thing that you actually emailed potential employers because now you're in the back of their mind and when you go to apply you may have a better chance at getting a job.

However as designers, I dont think you'll be picked specifically over someone else just because you know the editor. If you have good skills then they'll pick you for those, although it will help that you know the editor obviously..

My adivce, either try to fix the bug thats not making the editor work and get learning it if you specifically want to go to that studio. Or use something that is widely available, that everyone knows. This means that if you're doing something complex, people will understand how complex it is. As far as design goes, its great to even be able to use Sketchup, so its completely up to you as long as you can demonstrate your skills.

My engine of choice is always going to be Unreal. There are others, but as a designer, you will benefit greatly from the tools they provide for level designers. (I don't have shares in Unreal Tech by the way )

[DevinSherry]

Just to build off of what Alex and Pete have said, I think it is important as a designer to familiarize yourself with a 3D modeling package like 3ds Max or Maya. I say this because a lot of companies use their own in-house engines that need levels to be built in these 3D packages and exported out as FBX's, for example, in order to bring level content into the engine. A good piece of advice for a level designer that I have recently heard is that a level designer can be an efficient one no matter what means they use to produce their levels. This means that as a level designer, the engine or 3D package you use to white-box and potentially mesh your levels in should not be what defines you and that you can bring your level ideas to life in numerous programs and on paper, and be able to effectively communicate these ideas to others. I personally use the Unreal Development Kit to create a majority of my levels, but I always go through the process of drawn out level plans so that I can produce the levels in any form. I am also taking the time to learn 3ds Max as well, for both modeling purposes and for the purposes of just learning how to create basic level geometry so that I can produce levels in that program as well. I hope this has helped!

[Alex Rodriguez]

As Devin stated, learning a 3D Tool such as Mayaor Max, will only benefit you as a level designer. I always say the more skills you can bring to a table that benefits the others the more hireable you are. My advice is to take my approach or something like it: lay out your schedule on a day by day basis on a weekly basis. Spend 2 day's learning your editor of choice or practicing inside of it, take 1 day learning common level design practices such as sketching out some levels and laying down some ideas (this gives u a list you can pick when u start doing projects) you can even read all of Alex's G. amazing guides on the site. Then 1 or 2 day's learning a 3d software such as Max or Maya (this can be important you don't have to sit around and wait for a modeler to give you something to put inside a editor, it doesnt have to be great simple primitives as Devin stated can do). By 2-3 months time, you'll be surprised at how good of level designer and overall team member you will be to a team/project.

I myself started this way and now focus more on specific stuff, such as 3 days modeling, 1 day in a editor, 1 day doing level design practice. 2 days I do homework and get caught up on stuff

[DevinSherry]

To kind of negate Alex's previous point, I do not believe it is a good approach to try to learn too many things at a time because you will overwhelm yourself and therefore learn little tid bits over the course of a longer period of time. In my opinion, I think it would be best to first figure out what it is that you personally want to pursue in the games industry. Once you figure that out, follow that path very strictly and focus on that one aspect until you feel that you have a strong grasp of it. To explain using an example, if you want to become a level designer, do not focus on 3D art or programming; focus on level design. Start off by playing with ideas in your head and drawing them on paper and share your ideas with communities like this one because we can definitely help you out! Once you get a good grasp of level design theories and how to create fun playable spaces, then I would say it is safe to start learning a game engine of your choice. Start making levels by white-boxing them out, (no focus on aesthetic just game play) and share these with community members as well. After you get a strong grasp of the level editor you have chosen, this is where you need to make a difficult decision; you need to choose whether or not to pursue a technical aspect of level design or more of an artistic approach. There are two types of level designers, more or less. One type of level designer focuses on scripting game play and in-game events that drive the level forward. The other focuses on asset creation, lighting, and other aspects of level aesthetics. At this cross-road, take some time with both and see which one it is that you prefer and once you have that figured out, pursue that path because you can always pick up the other skill sometime in the future. In my opinion, you are more valuable as a team member when you are an expert in a certain area of game development than mediocre in a handful of areas. Don't stretch yourself too thin and learn these skills progressively, not at the same time.

I am just learning how to model in 3ds Max and I have been a level designer using UDK for almost 2 years now. By thoroughly understanding the Unreal Engine, I can focus more on learning modeling practices as well as 3ds Max itself, without having to worry about losing knowledge of the editor. By learning too many things at once, you will not retain the information as strong. If you follow the schedule that Alex follows, though it may work for him, it may not work for others. If you model for 3 days out of the week, 1 day out of the week to learn an editor and one day to practice level design, the break from one practice to study another will make you lose the knowledge you have just learned. However, if you were to focus on modeling 6 days out of the week and giving yourself a one day break to do what you want, you will retain more information.

This is just my opinion based upon my own experiences and what I have seen from others around me, so don't think that this is pure fact. I hope this has helped and good luck with whatever you decide to do!

[SuperGCNBoy]

Wow, I didn't expect to get so many thoughtful replies so quickly, thank you. You can make a full game in UDK? As far as portfolios go, do future level designers stick to just making levels in the UDK or does everyone kind of just make a full game? What sort of advantages does the UDK have over Unity, Hammer, or CryEngine?

Has anyone ever used the Dragon Age Toolset? I'm pretty into the game so I'm just wondering what people thought of the editor.

I don't necessarily want to work at Raven Software, I emailed them because I'm located in WI and they're basically the only developer here.

Is Sketchup like Maya or 3DS Max?
I also have these tools available:
http://students.autodesk.com/?nd=download_center

Not sure if I want to pick up a 3D modeler just yet since I'm reading "Sam's Teach Yourself C++ in 21 Days" to help prepare me for school in the Fall; I'm going for Computer Science. I also have a 20 month old so my only time is when he naps or when he goes to bed.

I think I might just start downloading the UDK so I can start that up asap since it seems like that's what everyone is using.

Thanks again!
SuperGamerBoy

[Alex Rodriguez]

Sketchup in my opinion is a little easier to use, for whiteboxing and planing out a design, for example architectural designs. Maya and 3Ds Max is a little harder to use if you want to be proficient at using it. I started back in High School using Sketchup I picked it up rather quickly, as for Maya it has taken me some time as Maya is more for modeling things out.

As for my schedule, I been in the world of game development since High School making small games starting out with Game Maker. I then moved to UDK then to 3D Modeling. After joining a project I noticed I wasn't getting enough responsibilities so I decide to learn to model.

The schedule I run is mainly due because I am still in college, the 2 days I put inside a editor are to do my work for my classes and the level design practice is work I do for projects that I am under.

The rest of my day I spent working inside of 3D modeling, so its true to focus on one thing but this can also depend on the project your in.

[SuperGCNBoy]

So Sketchup is for planning out a map? I thought these 3D modeling programs where for creating items or characters, house, etc and importing them into the editor.

[DevinSherry]

I personally feel that one should always carry around some sort of notebook, or something that you can write on so that when you have ideas for potential level designs you can quickly draw it out or write it down. Then, when you have more time on your hand, take that idea that wrote down or quickly sketched, and draw out a detailed level plan on Grid Paper. I say grid paper because most level editors, especially the UDK, use a grid to snap geometry into place, so if you plan ahead for grid snapping using grid paper, creating the white-box, and perhaps the fully fleshed map itself, will become a lot easier. Once you have the detailed level plan, get critiques on it by others because others will find problems with it that you haven't because you have been looking at it for so long. Once you have altered the level to correct problem areas, you can move into the white-boxing stage which can be done either in a game engine, or within a 3D package such as 3ds Max or Maya.

Programs like 3ds Max and Maya are used to create 3D game assets such as environment art, characters, animations, and things like that, but they are also used in the white-boxing stage of level development. To provide two industry examples, Uncharted levels were created in Maya and then imported into their game editor, and Halo Reach levels, particularly multiplayer levels, were created in 3ds Max and imported into their own game editor.

[SuperGCNBoy]

Oh cool,
And google Sketchup is the same thing? Out of those three, which would you recommend. I believe I have access to Maya and 3ds Max for free since I'm a student.

[DevinSherry]

It is really up to you, though I would personally would stray away from Google Sketch-up because there aren't too many cases that provide evidence that the industry uses that program for creating level plans, most studios use illustrator or Photoshop to do that process. As for choosing between 3ds Max or Maya, I prefer to use 3ds Max because it has an easier layout that makes sense to me because it is laid out in front of you on side bars, and Maya users need to go through a series of mouse clicks that bring up menus and I find it harder to navigate. I'd say for you to try both, perhaps give each program a full week of study and use before deciding.

[SuperGCNBoy]

I thought you said 3ds/Maya were used to create level plans, or is 3ds/Maya used in place on illustrator/PS?

[DevinSherry]

Level plans are strictly 2D, sorry if I did not clarify this earlier, and as a result it is better to use pencil and grid paper to create a detailed level plan that is physical, as well as recreating that level plan digitally using Photoshop or Illustrator . White-boxing, or grey-boxing, or whatever else this process is called, is taking that 2D level plan and bringing it into the 3D realm using a game engine or 3ds Max or Maya.

[Alex Rodriguez]

Maya is a little more intuitive once you become a proficient user, I welcome the UI it a simple breeze and walk in the park. 3Ds Max to some is a bit on a easier side to navigate through.

Both preform the same outcome its just which one you want to work with, I recommend 3Ds Max if your just starting out into 3d modeling as Maya can be a little intimidating to a newcomer.